Seem to be eating coils...

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Re: Seem to be eating coils...

Post by Coyote Jack on Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:27 pm

I have a MSD 6AL. Not sure on the part number. It fits a multitude of different applications.

Jack

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Re: Seem to be eating coils...

Post by grassy on Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:52 pm

Jack, I have read good things about it...

We are going to try one more thing...

Regardless, life is good..

ian.

grassy

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Re: Seem to be eating coils...

Post by AJ/FormS on Wed Oct 07, 2015 3:11 pm

Hi Grassy, How are you making out? I may be able to help you, if you are still needing help.

AJ/FormS

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Re: Seem to be eating coils...

Post by grassy on Wed Oct 07, 2015 3:33 pm

We did 2 things. We bought another electronic ignition. A MSD but it isn't installed yet.

After we cleaned up the mess we were still burning coils so we went back to the wiring diagrams. I am not totally sure the orange box is acceptable for the earlier mopars..or at least the manual didn't think so.. Anyway, we were still running a 12v coil, we wired in one resistor between the 12v source and the orange box...works great now... but still going to move up.

There is one remaining mystery...what should the operating temperature of coil be ?

grassy

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Re: Seem to be eating coils...

Post by AJ/FormS on Wed Oct 07, 2015 4:32 pm

I think there are 2 Orange boxs; A 4 pin and a 5pin. The 5pin needs to be ballasted on the main line in, to reduce it's operating voltage to something that won't kill it. The 4pin runs off battery voltage. Almost all coils need to be ballasted. Some are internally ballasted. Mopars are not. Quality coils, when purchased new, will tell you what the manufacturer designed it for, in the instructions.
Now here's the sticking point; Mopar ignition switches have 2 ignition feeds. In the start position, power goes out to the starter relay,and also to the Orange box and to the coil.Thus while the engine is cranking, the coil gets full battery voltage, and the orange box gets a somewhat reduced voltage. When the engine starts running, normally, the operator releases the key to the run position. In the run position, power is sent to the dual ballast resistor, where it is directed through one side to the Orange box, and through the other side to the coil.This is how the factory system works.
If you have a coil that does not require an external ballast, you need to wire it so that it gets power in both run and start. If you have a 5pin ecu, it must remain wired as per factory. If you have a 4pin Ecu, it plugs directly into the 5pin harness and works perfectly. If you have a 4pin harness and a 5pin ECU, that would be a no-go.You would have to swap ECUs or rewire the 4pin harness to be a 5pin harness.
The above wiring diagram is not compete, as it does not show how the dual ballast is wired.It's special in the way the 5pin gets its power.
If you are changing to an MSD or any non-factory system, the ballast system can be eliminated, and you follow the directions in the kit.
The thing you always have to remember is the dual ignition circuits originating in the OEM ignition switch. Somewhere those two circuits have to be bridged, to supply battery voltage during both start and run, to the ignition system. You cannot, however, just wire them together, as the starter relay will be continuously energized. You have to isolate that starter-relay. This is usually accomplished be inserting an ignition relay into that circuit, to be signaled by the start position, and feeding into the run circuit.
A non-ballasted canister coil runs very hot.I'd say too hot to hold onto for more than a couple of seconds; so That's about 130*ish. If it's engine mounted, it will be hotter yet. I have been running the big square Accell Supercoil for 15 years. It's case is non-metallic, quite large, and runs much cooler.It is ballasted, by the Accell resistor.
Hope that helps.

AJ/FormS

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Re: Seem to be eating coils...

Post by grassy on Thu Oct 08, 2015 4:21 am

I need a bit of time to digest what you wrote..my mind is like jello especially when it comes to electrics.. ..but your comment is correct re the diagram.. Smile




grassy

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Re: Seem to be eating coils...

Post by 70DartMike on Thu Oct 08, 2015 8:06 am

Hey Grassy, this is the chart I've always used for the conversion and never had problems. The one you followed looks to be missing information, such as the wire you add between ballast and coil +, as well as where the light blue wire actually goes (ballast, run side).


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Re: Seem to be eating coils...

Post by grassy on Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:17 am

AJ/FormS / 70DartMike,

In retrospect, if the orange box hadn't come with that car when we bought it, I probably wouldn't not have gone in that direction.

We are also leaning to the "it was the wrong unit" anyway situation. It is a 4 wire, not 5.  We borrowed a training manual that states that the 4 wire should not be used pre '80 or something like that..and unfortunately, that manual is better than the 2 MOPAR car specific manuals I own.

We were told (on another forum) that the set up we had was great and we could run it, no probs, without a ballast.  Partially true. Still needed one resistor.

We will switch over to the msd soon anyway.

One problem with the MSD is that our tach (sun) isn't compatible with the box and requires another part (8910), which for us is another 100 plus bucks..

Is this only for the rev limiter function and why couldn't we just leave the tach attached to the coil ?

This has been an interesting journey..

grassy

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Re: Seem to be eating coils...

Post by AJ/FormS on Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:54 pm

The MSD is a Multi-Strike system, and capacitor discharge. It fires something like 565volts into the coil, and something like 22 times per cylinder at sub 3000 rpm. Well that will cook your 12 v tach pretty quick. It is a completely unique system.

I ran the Orange box for about 4 years, and the big Accell Supercoil with it. I had no ECU, nor coil failures. I burned a ballast and one well-used magnetic trigger. I wired my 68 Barracuda to 70 Duster specs.

AJ/FormS

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Re: Seem to be eating coils...

Post by grassy on Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:58 am

...so we will need that 100 buck box for the tach...

grassy

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Re: Seem to be eating coils...

Post by AJ/FormS on Sat Oct 10, 2015 5:30 am

grassy wrote:...so we will need that 100 buck box for the tach...

"fraid so.hyup

AJ/FormS

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Re: Seem to be eating coils...

Post by grassy on Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:49 pm

fark.. ah well, better than keeping the orange box...

grassy

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Re: Seem to be eating coils...

Post by AJ/FormS on Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:41 pm

Well I cannot agree with that, cuz I've never run an MSD. I've always had good success with the Orange box.I'd like to tell you otherwise, and others will, but from my lips that would be a lie. And there's no place in the new kingdom for liars.Your results may vary.

AJ/FormS

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Re: Seem to be eating coils...

Post by grassy on Sun Oct 11, 2015 4:40 pm

It is a business thing...it something works well, there usually are not bunches of alternatives on the market....

Having to deal with this problem for so long, I read a lot.. and lots on the orange box...seems like many have had issues.. enough to make me concerned..

But I also have heard that many don't have problems with ballasts..  an object that we never wanting to have in our car again..ever...

Another thing I cannot understand is why the wiring system for this car was so complicated..  Chrysler should have taken the lead from other foreign manufacturers..simple is robust..and less expensive to produce.

Regardless, the system is patched together and seems to be working well...I wanted it to be working properly before we make the change...almost time to put it to be for the winter.

Thanks all for the help.

Grassy

grassy

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Re: Seem to be eating coils...

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